soo…
War.. a topic that is controversial, very controversial! And is a discussion i had with my dad tonight! which i am very happy to say was a good one and not a heated argument! =) always makes me happy to not fight!
but i would just like to share my stance on this subject with you and would love to have discussion about it if you like!!
For me, as a Jesus follower, as someone who pursues a Christ-like life, who wants to do what Jesus does, i do not want to raise a gun up, aim at a man(who just might be an evil person, who maybe has killed someone or hundreds of people) and shoot him dead. i don’t believe it is my purpose, as it shouldn’t be any Christians purpose, to put myself in that position, join the ranks and stop an evil man with a bomb or a bullet. that is just not what we are called too! i don’t think that’s what any Christian should be called too!
Why would God call a Christian to pick up a weapon, fly an airplane and drop a bomb on someone to kill them because we don’t see eye to eye on faith or on a nations “interest”? if we are called to be set aside, to be different than the world, to live in but not be of the world then why would we join an army, just like any other army in the world, to rid of people who don’t agree with us and/or our nations interests?
War is a protest, a violent protest. War is saying we don’t agree with what you are doing so we are going to make you listen by bombing your country’s individuals, most likely killing babies, children, mothers, donkeys, sheep, dogs and cats that are too close to the bad guys who lives we are trying to end all because his brother killed my cousin first. eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth… life for a life.
My dad made a very good point today in our conversation, on a business trip he was having lunch with a Muslim man. they were eating and exchanging conversations about political and religious views in an easy going conversation. Then across the room a Jewish man got in line at the cafeteria, my dad had no clue the man was Jewish. He said the Muslim man’s attitude and whole body language changed and asked him “is everything okay?”. The Muslim man replied, “that man over there is Jewish and disgusts me!” my dad asked why it discussed him and the Muslim man replied “because he isn’t human.”….. (on a side note, that statement shocks me that in 2010, people still believe some people aren’t human). but as my dad and the Muslim left the cafeteria and were about to head there separate ways my dad asked the man ”whether your religon or my religion is right, should we kill each other because the other is wrong, don’t you think that our God can take care of who dies?” The point being, if Jesus called us to live a life like he lived, to love our enemies, to do good to those who hurt us, who persecute us, who murder us because our faith or our values don’t line up… should we pick up a weapon then point it at the human who has a different opinion and shoot them?
For us a Christians in a worldly nation, America.. we have the choice, war or the good fight? We have been set aside, to be an example to those who don’t know about what love is, what forgiveness is, what sacrificereally is.. we have been called to fight the evil in the man, not the man himself. to fight the evil that wants to take the 5 year old kid who has been raped and beaten by his dad and turn him into a murder.. we are to fight the evil that tells a man to go blow himself up.. we are called to go be disciples of all nations, to spread light in a dark evil world. killing a man will not save him from hell.. it sends him there that much quicker… i pledge my allegiance to a higher power, not of this world, i will not back a nation who puts people in power in other countries to kill people for our “nations interest”. i am in this world, but not of it. i will not participate or support anything that kills another human being.
i am not bashing American soldiers in this blog.. i am not saying Christians who have fought in these last to wars or any wars are any worse than i am.. we are all brothers and sisters and we need to say what we believe, what we feel is right. just because you fight in a war and have to kill someone doesn’t mean you are going to hell. i want to share how i feel and how i am personally convicted. i am convicted to share this belief of mine, it is different than my parents and a whole ton of people i share the same faith with, it may be different than yours! i just think there is a better way to help the world, a better, cleaner fight to be fought.
Satan wants war, he wants to fill hell up with as many souls as he can, and as Jesus followers what would happen if we laid our weapons down and said “I’m not going to send you to hell, i will not send you to a place of eternal torture, i will speak love into your soul, into your life.” a non-violent protest against human violence.. Love is a protest, a protest against war.
this is a song about revenge.. look at it through the point of view by the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross who said “remember me Lord when you enter your kingdom” listen to what he says revenge is..who took revenge for us so we wouldn’t have too..
God Bless
-mike
I also forgot I wanted to add something not so confrontational. haha
What you said about your brother is a very intelligent answer. I admire your love for that other man and for his well being. I think you addressed the situation as Christ would. However, I just… GOTTA ask, Would your decision be the same if your brother was not a christian?
Whose life is worth more? And is it okay to let another man commit a sin? Should we not also dissuade others from their destructive course? I think the situation is much more complicated. HOWEVER
Having said all that I want to observe that your sincerity and honesty are so encouraging to see. Though we may disagree I am overjoyed to find someone thinking through hard issues as thoroughly as possible. I think christians with viewpoints like yours are of paramount importance because it is harder to maintain a posture of peace. Violence comes easily to the human spirit. AND to have christians who practice peace no matter the cost is extremely important. The truth is all we measely humans have our hypothetical situations to base our actions off of. We aren’t God and we don’t know the whole story so we make informed decisions and arrive at different conclusions. I do not think we should all have the same opinions. The difference and extreme oppositions often create not weakness, but strength! Within the conflict and argument our religion arrives at a medium and often times the truth is not at one end of the argument or the other end, but lies somewhere between the two. Somewhere within where God knows the answer. Those who seek truth will find, yes? So I find these discussions of belief to be Awesome.
I agree with a lot of the things you said. I agree that violence is almost never an appropriate option. Especially not for a christian with other options. I agree that war is often used to further an agenda, to conquer other cultures and to claim other land. It’s used for a number of amoral actions and despicable things. However, there is most certainly a time of defense. Put it in a personal setting for yourself… Can you really think of no situation where violence would not only be acceptable, but the ONLY correct course? Maybe not to kill, but at least to disarm or attack with intent to defend anothers life? To despise killing is an important part of being a christian. Our religion is based on love, life, and truth through Jesus Christ. I want to point out though, that our God is VIOLENT. He uses an ultimate destruction to eradicate those who disagree with him. He will permanently purge those who have sinned from existence. That’s pretty hardcore and I would go as far to say as worse than killing someone. The majority of those who have ever lived are going to burn in hell forever.
I’m not saying this means that christians should follow suit and take up arms and kill all sinners. Absolutely not, we are not God, but instead we are his children of light and our missio is to spread the good news. First and foremost. I also want to point out that Peter the apostle deliberately killed two of his congregation for withholding part of their earnings from the church. I would call that violence. Will you really judge Peter’s action so harshly?
I believe firmly that violence is sometimes the only correct course, but I also maintain that it should be a VERY LAST course of action and sometimes not the correct action at all. For instance, I would fight to protect myself, but would not go as far to kill someone intentionally. My life is not worth enough to me, but if someone attacked a loved one or friend I would not hesitate to eliminate their attacker if necessary. IF!!!!!!! BIG IF. I just want to point that out. I cannot think of a situation where this would be necessary, but if it became so, I wouldnot stutter or falter. I believe it against our own conscience granted to us by God to not defend our family and loved ones.
However, I also believe that people are ready to go to war too easily and are angered too easily. We must use the highest form of caution and wisdom when considering the lives of another. I agree our nation does not use as much caution as I believe is warranted, but I also know that is some extremely unfortunate situations a man must die and often in those situations it is because the man himself put himself in a situation where another had no choice and should not be held accountable any more so than his own conscience will accost him for the rest of his life.
If you really believe in the Bible you should check your opinions with it’s scripture and make a more enlightened decision. The violence of God and of christ is not left behind in the old testament. I often look to Paul for his stance on matters because he is an OUTSTANDING example for all modern day christians. The issues he addresses are SO relevant and has cleared my mind on many an issue. He’s a real treasure and upsetting person to read. haha He’s very convicting. That’s my two cents.
Mike, sorry about not wording that well. I meant the area of prejudice and what the right response “should” be and exploring the treatment of slaves/blacks in history and their responses. Because their responses are self-defense and self-preservation as similar to most men’s responses when threatened in war or an intruder in our home, as was your example. And exploring the depths of “hate” in prejudice and what is a “Christlike” response really? What you think that would be in those situations. I am not convinced yet, that what we “stereotype” or “presume” is the “Christlike” response is what it really is. What does it really mean when we are faced with the hate in a person’s soul in the heat of attack. I think it can still mean some pretty tough stuff has to happen and can still turn out well…just some more to think about.
Let me know what you think of Uncle Tom’s Cabin. I think you will like it.
I have the original series of Elsie Dinsmore written in the original language from the 1860′s. I don’t think that can be found at the library, but the updated series can and is written in today’s language. I don’t know how good the updated version is. It is marketed for preteen/teen girls, but the books I have can be read by anyone and enjoyed. Elsie’s character is a study in itself of what it could mean to love Jesus and be Christlike.
Hello Lora!
Thanks for the recovery wishes!! they arren’t to bad today! i hope tomorrow is the same!! I haven’t read any of those books, but i have heard of Uncle Tom’s Cabin.. i will need to check that book out soon! thanks! also, what do you mean explore? i’m not really sure what you are reffering too, i’m guessing maybe torture? let me know! it was good hearing from you and i’m sure our meeting will be dandy!!!
God Bless! thanks for the debates!
-mike
Hi Mike,
Sorry to hear you are in pain with your wisdom teeth. I hope you recover soon.
I was thinking about our debate today as I was reading with my daughter. She is 12 and still homeschooled, and we are reading a series written in the 1860′s called Elsie Dinsmore. We are in book 5 and the focus is the Ku Klux Klan and how the “negroes” and plantation owners are defending themselves (after the war) and the torture, etc. I was wondering if you had explored this area yet. Even though it boils down to spiritual, I wondered about the hate they faced and how they are handling it in this series.
I also wanted to recommend you read Uncle Tom’s Cabin, if you haven’t already. Uncle Tom’s response to his abusers was Christlike rather than warlike…I think you would really like reading it. It is an AMAZING story!! Maybe something to do while you recover…:)
And I thought of you the other day when I was reading James 4, about where do wars come from…the quarrels and fights among you.
I’m looking forward to meeting you…after getting to know each other through this debate…:)
Lora
Thanks for declaring the truth, brother Mike!
Dear Lora,
It is mine goal! haha it’s a good thing to keep us on our toes and to challenge each other to keep our faith alive and on fire! keep burning and staying awake!
-mike
Mike,
The situation you portrayed in your last comment about your brother’s life is seriously messing with my mind. I will be thinking about that one for awhile and digging into the question more about what would Jesus do or think about that. Thanks a lot for the challenge (sarcasm)…now I will be wrestling for awhile, but I have a sneaky suspicion that’s your goal…haha. Have a good day!
Lora
Dear Lora
I understand where you are coming from with the paternal instinct. When my dad and i were having this conversation, he asked me “If someone came into our house, and put a gun to your little brother and you had a chance to stop them by killing them, what would you do?” It was a trick question for me, because he knows my stance on war and killing, he wanted to see what i would say.
to be honest, i didn’t have an answer for him. because i love my family so much and my convictions are strong.. i was torn. I asked myself that simple corny question “What would Jesus do?” now because he is Jesus, i’m sure he would have a very good explanation for that answer, he is pretty good at trick questions! haha but i also think of all the criticism i would get if i let that man or woman kill my brother and think of how i would feel if i killed him. i would have never had the chance to witness to him then, i couldn’t go to him in prison if he got caught and forgive him for what he did because i ended his life.
and actually while writing this response i found my answer.. literally like one minute ago. haha
i know where my seven year old brother would go if he died today, i know where my family is going after death. They have accepted this glorious amazing grace Jesus bled for. they have eternal life! my choice, as harsh as it sounds would be to let that man pull the trigger if it came to it, i would examine every option i have! pleading with them to not do it, finding a way to subdue him, i would try everything… and i guarantee you, it would tear deep into my soul, into my heart to watch a horrific thing as that. but after all is said and done, we answer to the Lord. And God see’s our every sacrifice we make for him and and remembers them.
I know that many would not agree with me on this and that i would never hear the end of it. but again, in the end, i answer to God himself. and my conviction is to let that man live so that i or someone else can plant that seed into him. i will be with my family in heaven, if i can add one more soul to that family, i will do my best to! as every Christian should to show these broken and tore souls God’s AMAZING grace!
Thank you so much for this good conversation! and for challenging me as well!
God Bless!
-mike
one last thought that you have brought to my attention and has challegened me is Romans 14. it speaks directly about other fellow believers convictions. I, myself, as do all believers need to respect each others convictions and be careful not to be bitter and condemn them for their convictions. we are to be building each other up and not discouraging each other! i believe this conversation has been a very healthy way to share opinions and hasn’t led to discouragement! and i just want to thank you for it! i am glad we get to share our opinions with each other!
-mike
Mike, you have peaked my interest to follow the war more than I have. Here is a site I saw on the news this morning…http://www.facebook.com/amanpourcnn. It reports how the war is being reported throughout the world.
Also, your point about love is right. There is no other way to convert but to love. My life wouldn’t be the same without God’s love for me or those who have loved me with Christ’s love.
Lora
Hi Mike,
Your views are understood in your last comment. I love the passion. I am sure my views are influenced by my background, experiences, society and my relationship with the Lord. We are all different and have different opinions. You did well in portraying what you think God’s view is now for bringing the world to salvation, and I’m not going to say it’s wrong. In some ways, I am probably viewing things from a parent’s perspective. If I were on my own and didn’t have a family depending on me, I might not be so quick to protect myself and their future freedoms. But, maybe that is not putting God first. It is a challenging thought, but also goes against my basic instincts. I feel like to do what you are saying we are asked to do goes against those internal instincts, and I am not too sure what to do with that. I think both can be done by being sensitive to what God would be asking of us in the moment and still yielding to him each moment of the day.
Keep studying and I pray you win many souls for the Lord with your passion and love for them.
It was nice talking to you.
Lora
Dear Lora
Maybe i haven’t made myself clear on the point I am trying to make and that is my fault.
What i am trying to say is that, as Gentiles.. we were given grace, Gods people(Jews) did not accept God’s grace and because of that the Gentiles were given an equal opportunity for it. God waged so much war in the Old Testament because the grace for Gentiles was not given to us yet.. so really either way, we were going to hell and we were in the way of Gods chosen people. We should be thanking the Jews for screwing up.. if they would have done what God asked of them and accepted his grace, i don’t think we would have the chance we have now.
Now because of this grace, we should not be waging any war on any human, “instead if they are hungry feed them, if they are thirsty, give them something to drink”(Romans 12:20) I believe Christians of many nations have misread the old testament especially Americans.. we are not Jews, we are not the original choosen people, we are Gentiles. Jesus came for the Jews as well as the Gentiles. Jesus fillfuled the law, and the new commandment is to love.(1 John 2:7-8)
To me it is as clear as day in the New Testament that love is the answer to everything, but to Americans, to British, to any person love isn’t realistic to fight all evil.. the only way to rid of it is to kill it, take its power away. i don’t see how if someone reads the New Testament, they can fight in war. heck the reason i use to be pro-war was because i didn’t read the New Testament, i didn’t read period.
Jesus brought change, a new standard to living to the Jew and Gentile alike… (Galatians 5, 1 John 2,)
Over and over again in the New Testament Paul speaks of freedom in Christ, Christ came, bought us all our freedom and the law is no longer subject to us.. love, love, love.. no longer worry about your physical desires we are no longer non-believers but instead are called to bring people to the kingdom of God.. i don’t see how a Christian solider man or woman is bringing the kindom of God by protecting their freedom of religon, their freedom of speech, their freedom of buying gas, clothes or even tooth paste with a gun. their freedom, my freedom, me, me, me…
We should be giving up these freedoms to bring others to Christ by running to them, giving them our food, our clothes.. we are so comfortable in our American country.. if we have picked to live for Christ, a huuuge sacrafice is made, we are no longer a normal people!!! the whole point of Jesus’ coming to earth and dying was to buy our freedom.. we are here on earth for a speck of time, why should we spend it fighting wars to protect our earthly freedom? shouldn’t we be more concerened with the Muslim, the Hindi, the Atheist, the Agnostic who doesn’t know the Good News?
If in a war, we kill “evil people”, do you think that their relative likes that and suddenly understands that Jesus brought us salvation? The US dollar bill says, “In God We Trust”… what does that say about our God if we are killing people? Were we ever really a nation under God? I don’t believe it is possible to call us a Christian nation if not all are Christian.. The people who started the nation may have been Christian, and put Christian morals and values into the goverenment but our teachers don’t preach in our public schools, our courts no longer carry the 10 commandments, our leaders are all not
Christian.. We are a group inside a nation, not a Christian nation. we are blessed by God yes, but i feel God is about to lift that blessing from this “christian nation”.
We are a different people, (Romans 12:1-2), we are called to not behave or follow customs of this world. Is war of God? is killing of God? if Gods will for us is good, pleasing and perfect, why do we kill? killing does not sound good to me! In Galations 5:16-26 its speaks of fruits of sinful nature and fruits of the Holy Spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Gentleness, love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness or self-control do not support a reason for me to go to war.
The point i want to make here is, Christians shouldn’t be fighting a war to give them their 5 bedroom homes, or private school to send their children too, or even killing to protect their (me, my, mine) freedom to go to church. There is a much greater freedom we should be spreading by our mouths, by the way we live!! killing is not furthering the Kingdom of God! i dont see how anyone in their right mind can say “by killing this radical, i’m spreading the word! i’m telling the world about Jesus!”
Ephesians 6:10-12 “11 A final word: Be strong in the Lord and in his might power. Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil. 12 For we are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”
These wars the US fights is not to further the kingdom, it has no intention to. its purpose is to bring democracy, to protect its borders and to keep its foothold in strategic places. Which just like every nation, it wants to promote its ways. Who are we fighting for in these wars? ourselves? good morals and values? we are told to die to self, to die to our phyiscal desires.. i believe freedom to choose where to work is a physical desire, freedom to walk down the street is a physical desire, freedom to purchase whatever clothing i want to wear and wear it whenever i please is a physical desire. Who are we really fighting for? the US or God? God is a jealous God remember. lets not get ourselves caught up in these wars when there is a much greater war to be fought. i love my freedom, i’m thankful for the people who died to give it to me, but i don’t need it. we need to be pursuing God in everything we do! we need to be fighting for souls! not fighting to kill them!
I do want to thank you for this discussion! i am grateful for your opinions! I know we all agree that there is a good fight to be fought in advancing Gods Kingdom! im sorry if i have come off bitter or discouraging.. that is not my intention! forgive me if i have! i am a young person and still have many, many things to learn! i just want to give something for us to think about, what are we really fighting for? who are we really fighting for, ourselves or God?
Feel free to add to this discussion! i’m trying not stopping it here!
love and God Bless
-mike
Mike,
I can see your point and argument. I read into it a lot of disdain for the American government, which can be understandablel but is also sad at the same time. Some of your opinions don’t seem based on unbiased facts.
You mentioned that this current war was started out of revenge. I can see why you would say that. Others would say that this war was started because we were threatened (and still are). We are protecting our borders. If we weren’t, we could have terrorists walking our neighborhoods as we speak. You said God can still protect us then. Yes, He could. But should we be unwise enough to not be proactive.
You mention America only gives aid in an emergency. Please, that is showing your disdain again. Find out your facts. America provides aid in all kinds of situations. And even if it were just in emergencies or war, so what. It is still a good thing.
Are you a pacifist? It seems like it. There are many pacifist countries. When Germany invaded the smaller pacifist countries during WWII, who saved them? The American military. And the American military will save any pacifist American when ordered to, even though they are disdained. Talk about loving your enemies…I think the military does a pretty good job, as well as laying down their lives for friends…you and me.
Let’s not forget that when Paul’s life was threatened, he ran for safety. When missionaries are threatened in other countries, they leave, and it is the American soldier that is rescuing them.
Let’s remember that God ordains and puts into power our leaders, whether we like them or not. He turns the hearts of kings and we are told to pray for them.
I like reading your points and can appreciate your opinions and views. They challenge me, and I like to be challenged. But, please be careful of your somewhat apparent bitterness toward the past and current government. War and governments are terrible, that’s for sure. Our nation has done some awful things and isn’t always headed in the right direction. Stay passionate for Christ and keep challenging others, but leave bitterness and disdain out of it, that doesn’t do anyone any good.
And although I am challenged by your words and the scripture you have listed, I will still run for safety in the arms of a soldier, than stand on a hill to be shot. I will be ready to shoot if someone threatens my family’s safety. And this can be done and still regarding what the Lord would ask me to do. He could be calling me to do differently in a certain situation. I will always be ready to tell someone of Him if faced with life or death and to minister, BUT we cannot be unwise either. EVIL is real and when faced with it, it doesn’t back down because I put myself willingly within its range. That may appear faithless, but we can’t take every situation and make it fit a mold. My passion and beliefs may or may not affect someone, BUT if called to die for my faith and the salvation of another…that still being considered.
In the past God has wiped out entire nations and cities for godlessness and sin. It could be argued for the current war as well, but I am not going there. That is a far stretch, and I certainly wouldn’t pass that judgment, but someone could argue that if they believed it.
Let’s keep in mind, God’s character does not change, He is still judge over all nations and if he so chooses to wipe out a nation or people, even America, He will by whatever means he chooses.
Dear Lora
Thank you for your response as well, please read what i wrote to Michael as well.
I agree that many have given great sacrifice for this nation, for our earthy freedoms.. but if i am correct, the British nation we fought to have America was not hendering us from having a faith in Jesus so the sacrifices made were for other reasons. What about the sacrifices our American troops made in the American Indian Wars when we “killed” and displaced millions of Native Americans because they weren’t Christian? or what about the bomb that dropped on a gym with Christian woman and children in Iraq? what is the cost of our “freedom”?
were we not made free in Christ already? how many more times do we need to “kill” until we understand we are already free..?
Dear Michael
Thank you very much for reading this and taking the time to respond! I once was a pro-war guy too… then I had some very loving friends show me what it really means to love..
First thought, what is your definition of a Jesus follower, as a disciple? We are called to be disciples of all nations, are we not? Read the instructions Jesus gives the 12 disciples in Matthew 10:16-42
Another thought.. do you know why Muslim Mujahideen (jihad) attacked the US in 2001? Was that not a religious attack because we don’t follow their god Allah? That would be considered persecution if I am correct, which Jesus told us would happen to us if we followed him. He also told us to lay down our swords.. he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.. Matthew 26:52 I would also like to see where you get God saying it was good about slaughtering wicked nations… is death good?
Something that really bothered about what you said, “If you act with aggression and he surrenders, then it’s a different story and then you should show mercy.” Does that mean shoot first ask questions later? Read what 1 Peter 4:8-12 says about peace and retaliating. Not only does God call us to love our neighbor, the stranger, the man or woman in prison, but our enemies.. the ones who kill us, call us names and make fun of us because of what we believe in..which is LOVE.. God is LOVE. (1 John 4:16b) its says “God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.”
The ENTIRE New Testament is love… love you brother, love your sister, love your neighbor, love you enemy.. Read all of 1 John the whole book is about loving one another! Not once in the New Testament do I read Jesus telling us to take arms and kill anyone. I said kill, not murder. Our nation went to war on revenge, to get back at the ones that got us first.
We are slaves to Christ, and we are to respect Gods commands, we are to do what he tells us.. please read 1 Peter 2:18-23 & 3:11!! other verses telling us not to retaliate!
Mariano covered a lot of want I wanted to respond with, but please read those passages I have in this response!
Imagine yourself as a Muslim, since you were born you have been told to hate people who aren’t like you, to kill(to them it is killing, just like war to a majority of Christian Americans is killing) those who won’t follow Allah, and to extremely hate Jews. Lets say you grow up fed this your whole life, you know nothing else other than the Koran and its teaching. The US comes waging war, to “kill” people that believe the same thing you do because they were told to go blow them selves up and that they will be rewarded. You pick up arms because American soldiers are “killing” your Muslim brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers.. and you get shot and “killed” by a Christian American, a Christian man told to love his enemies, to go to the Muslim nation and share the love of Christ. A man told to be a Christian first and American second. 1 Peter 2:9-12
God has paid for the sin of the Muslim and God is the judge of him.. not me, not you.. we should know this especially has Christians. I am not writing about this because I want to start an argument for arguments sake.. this is a plea! To open our eyes to what we are doing!!! The name we are giving our God of love and ourselves as the followers of him. If you really desire your freedom, go to your enemy, preach the gospel and save him before someone else does with a bullet. Do you not realize you are already free? Your sins have been paid for and you have been saved so that you can run to places far and near to tell about your freedom in Christ..
I could go on for hours talking to you about how the US has started wars, put evil people in power to fight evil people, then had to go start a war with them. How they only seem to give aid when an earthquake hits or a tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people..
The point of this is that we are called to be different, we are called to stick out like a sore thumb. We are fighters of souls, our battle is that of the spiritual realm, the blood we shed should be our own by giving up our lives for Christ, not our freedom to go and buy the latest Miley Cyrus cd or wear the cool pair of jeans ever. If Islam takes over the US, does God not see you anymore.. Will God let us all die if we lay our weapons now and not fight? War is in our blood and we should choose to fight it, fight the urge to get back on the jihad who killed the innocent. Instead we should choose to love them, what will that say about our God of love? I’m sorry to tell you, but my faith is not about me or my physical freedoms, it is about my Savior, the one that saved me from death. If you have to force your hand of destruction on any one to show them love, to free them? then I don’t want to be a part of that faith. any human has a freedom to chose what or who they want to follow.
As I close, I want anyone who reads this to think hard about who is their king, in 1 Samuel 8, Israel asks for a king and Samuel tells them if they have a king they will be enlisted into his army and will fights that kings battles and wars and everything else the king asks for, they replied to Samuel vs. 20“We want to be like the nations around us. Our (earthly) king will judge us and lead us into battle” They choose an earthly king over God, the one who freed them from slavery, from death. Read this passages and meditate on them, pray and think hard about why we Christians are in armies killing people instead of running to their rescue
1 Samuel 8
Matthew 5:3-11
Matthew 5:38-48
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 26:52-54-put away your sword
Luke 6:27-38 Love for enemies and do not judge
John 8:7-if you have not sinned, you throw the first stone
1 Corinthians 13
1 Peter 2:9-12
1 Peter 2:18-25
1 John 4:7-20
Here’s my two cents:
QUOTING THE OLD TESTAMENT TO JUSTIFY WAR:
We commonly forget that Jesus came to fulfill the Law HIMSELF. No more sacrifices, no more exclusivity. The people massacred were pagans, which meant they weren’t Jewish and they were somehow in the way of God’s people. By the SAME LAW, we’re all violating fundamental rules such as eating certain meats, wearing clothes of different fabrics and shaving beards.
However, Jesus changed that. He reached out to the Samaritans, Gentiles and outcasts. Without JESUS, none of us [unless you're Jewish] would have ANY PART in His Kingdom.
When Jesus was rightfully angry about what was going on in the Temple, he turned tables and sure, he might have whipped a couple guys. But I don’t recall him killing anyone. So unless our idea of war is to go to that country and turn tables, this argument does not apply. We easily forget Matthew 26:52. Live by the sword and you’ll die by the sword.
END OF TIMES:
By saying that in the end there will be destruction doesn’t mean God is behind it. The Holy Spirit must FIRST abandon this world and leave it to The Prince of this World. So, the destruction and mass genocide comes as a result of the absence of God’s Spirit. Mass chaos breaks out and PEOPLE, not God, kill each other.
WAR AS A MEANS TO EVANGELISM:
I don’t deny that God can work miracles, but to say that the USA is fighting for Christianity is just as unrealistic as Bin Laden fighting for Islam. The US MILITARY HAS ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION OF SPREADING THE GOSPEL. It never has and it never will. That’s the CHURCH’S responsibility, not the military, not the government.
You can’t force someone to fall in love with God, not with words and certainly not with a GUN. It’s a process you both choose and live out. My life belongs to God’s and I owe HIM for who and where I am, not the military. Whether I was born in the USA, China or Uganda, my life is HIS AND HIS ONLY. I would be thankful and joyful, even if I lived under and oppressive government. Don’t believe me? Look up what God is doing in Africa. See what God can do in countries where there are virtually no governments and the military destroy they very thing they’re supposed to protect.
But alas, WE LIVE IN THIS WORLD. A world with armies and horrifying realities. We can’t change it because we’re not God, but we can live with the purpose and commitment that Jesus set out for us. If that means you join the military, then I trust your relationship with GOD and HIM IN YOU that it’s a decision you feel lead to do.
Should we be thankful and loving and prayerful for our soldiers? Of course, regardless of what and how, they’re our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers and who are we to deny them love?
Never mistake violence for evangelism.
where to even begin with my disagreements. If you feel that you are not cut out for the military or can’t see yourself taking life, that much I can respect. Not everyone can or should be in it. HOWEVER, that is about where our common ground ends.
Just to get this out of the way, I am very pro-military, my best friends have all gone active and reserve in the military, I plan to become an officer and go Infantry, but I’m not pro-mindless slaughter, and you seem to look narrow mindedly at things to see only what you want. No Christian is called to go to war? Read the bible sometime. The Old Testament is riddled with Israelites being called by God to join armies, slaughtering entire nations (wicked), and God said it was good. Man, woman, child, and animal, none were spared. If you don’t feel the Old Testament is relavent in today’s age, read the New Testament’s Revelation. God plans to bring utter destruction and war to the earth. That’s a lot more dead women and children then any soldier could ever manage. You are correct, we are not called to be of the world, but there are more reasons to join the army then mass slaughter of innocent civilians and children as you say. The US military is involved in humanitarian missions, engineering, medical, and of course national defense. The US military can’t just go off and bomb anyone who disagrees with them. Personally I’d prefer that in many cases, would take care of many problems without having to deal with stupid politicians, but there are things such as the League of Nations, Geneva Convention, and military ethics, which all control and dictate how a soldier must act and how the military will operate.
As for the Muslim, as long as there is sin on earth, people will kill each other over religion. You can decide to love that Jihad all you want, but you will still be killed if you don’t decide to defend yourself. He won’t think twice about lighting you up and everyone you care about. It at that point is self defense. If you act with aggression and he surrenders, then it’s a different story and then you should show mercy.
Yes Jesus said to love your neighbor, but he also raised hell at the temple when he saw wrong doings and sin, he grabbed a whip and went to town on them.
As for the US setting up crap governments, yes this occurs, but that’s politics. No nation or human is perfect. Had another country done it, I’m willing to bet the end result would have been even worse, so if you can find a “perfect” country, feel free to move there and let me know so I can join.
As Jesus followers if we laid down our weapons against Al-Qaida, we would be shot on sight and killed ourselves, and they would continue to spread the false religion of Islam to the world, and no one would know of God, because we would all be dead. The Christian needs to be alive to be able to share the news.
And lastly, while yes there are times when troops are sent to fight in other countries, generally we didn’t start it. Another country attacks or threatens to attack us, and we decide to take the fight over there instead of having civilians in our country die. It’s not a soldier’s goal to kill innocent, it’s his goal to stop the enemy with minimal casualties and to get their leaders to stop. War is hell and things happen. If we threw down all weapons and spoke peace, our country would be overrun and destroyed/conquered in a heartbeat. The military is the thing that protects you and has allowed you to have a safe life.
Mike,
Your point of view is well expressed, and I wish it were more of a reality. And whether we agree with it or not, no one knows sacrifice more than a soldier, especially an American soldier, (and their families maybe more so). And without their sacrifice and the horrible reality of war, there may not have been an America. There may not have been a “free” country at all. Maybe that doesn’t matter and could be argued as well. But my generation and your generation can’t grasp the sacrifices of previous generations that fought for this country and what it stands for…FREEDOM, not just politically, but spiritually. The wars of previous generations have given you the “right” to speak freely today, otherwise, you may not have had it.
I would disagree with your statement of our purpose of war right now in another country. It is not for our nation’s purpose, but the purpose of the other nations (and tortured individuals) and the world at large in the long run. And you say America is a worldly nation…but has it always been? I might disagree with that, too.
What is the answer…Prayer. Prayer for our government and this world. Prayer for what your point is, that we would be more Christ-like toward others that disagree and ARE evil, because when met face to face in their evil state, would give you and your family no mercy. Evil and spiritual forces don’t change…the individual might change when met with Christ-likeness, but not the evil itself. But prayer also, that there would not be war, and my prayer especially is that we would not come to a time again where we “draft” our young men and women. That is worse that voluntary war!
Lora